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	<title>Comments on: Smart Chimpanzees, Stupid Human Beings</title>
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	<link>http://www.fragmentaryevidence.com/2009/03/13/smart-chimpanzees-stupid-human-beings/</link>
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		<title>By: m</title>
		<link>http://www.fragmentaryevidence.com/2009/03/13/smart-chimpanzees-stupid-human-beings/#comment-1165</link>
		<dc:creator>m</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 08:02:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fragmentaryevidence.com/?p=435#comment-1165</guid>
		<description>Dave

I do think dog&#039;s feelings can get hurt. Of course I could be anthropomorphizing. Though we are different from many other animals we are all animals in the end and I don&#039;t think dogs are all that different from us when it comes to emotion. They do get depressed, excited, embarassed, lonely, etc. They seem to at least, but again that could just be human projection, although my gut tells me it isn&#039;t. Anyway I totally agree that animals need to heed their instincts and we shouldn&#039;t prevent that.  Actually I think humans need to heed their instints and connections to the natural world a whole lot more too but we often seem to overlook that as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave</p>
<p>I do think dog&#8217;s feelings can get hurt. Of course I could be anthropomorphizing. Though we are different from many other animals we are all animals in the end and I don&#8217;t think dogs are all that different from us when it comes to emotion. They do get depressed, excited, embarassed, lonely, etc. They seem to at least, but again that could just be human projection, although my gut tells me it isn&#8217;t. Anyway I totally agree that animals need to heed their instincts and we shouldn&#8217;t prevent that.  Actually I think humans need to heed their instints and connections to the natural world a whole lot more too but we often seem to overlook that as well.</p>
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		<title>By: dc</title>
		<link>http://www.fragmentaryevidence.com/2009/03/13/smart-chimpanzees-stupid-human-beings/#comment-519</link>
		<dc:creator>dc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Mar 2009 18:47:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fragmentaryevidence.com/?p=435#comment-519</guid>
		<description>V Smoothe: No, I didn&#039;t intend to equate those things. When I made the remark, I was thinking specifically of &lt;a href=&quot;http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090218/ap_on_re_us/chimpanzee_attack&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;the chimpanzee in Connecticut&lt;/a&gt; who attacked a friend of its owner last month, after being treated disturbingly like a human being instead of a chimpanzee. I think that chimpanzees belong in the forest with another chimpanzees -- not in Stamford, CT eating ice cream and watching television.

As for dogs, some dog owners also seem to blur the distinction between dogs and humans in ways that seem unhealthy to me. I&#039;m thinking, for example, of people who spend small fortunes sending their dogs to high-end &quot;spas&quot; while they are at work, but don&#039;t spend time taking their dogs for a decent walk on a regular basis. Just because a person might appreciate a day of pampering at a spa doesn&#039;t mean that it&#039;s the best thing for a dog. Or I occasionally hear people saying that they hate leaving their dog at home when they go out in the evening because the dog&#039;s feelings might be hurt. In my opinion, hurt feelings aren&#039;t in a dog&#039;s emotional repertoire, but dogs &lt;em&gt;are&lt;/em&gt; very attuned to humans&#039; emotional states, and a dog is likely to develop separation anxiety if its owners project human neuroses onto the dog whenever they leave home for a few hours. I think it&#039;s fun to take dogs along to bars or to parties if they are welcome there, but if we have to leave them at home, we shouldn&#039;t project our own human insecurities onto our dogs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>V Smoothe: No, I didn&#8217;t intend to equate those things. When I made the remark, I was thinking specifically of <a href="http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090218/ap_on_re_us/chimpanzee_attack" rel="nofollow">the chimpanzee in Connecticut</a> who attacked a friend of its owner last month, after being treated disturbingly like a human being instead of a chimpanzee. I think that chimpanzees belong in the forest with another chimpanzees &#8212; not in Stamford, CT eating ice cream and watching television.</p>
<p>As for dogs, some dog owners also seem to blur the distinction between dogs and humans in ways that seem unhealthy to me. I&#8217;m thinking, for example, of people who spend small fortunes sending their dogs to high-end &#8220;spas&#8221; while they are at work, but don&#8217;t spend time taking their dogs for a decent walk on a regular basis. Just because a person might appreciate a day of pampering at a spa doesn&#8217;t mean that it&#8217;s the best thing for a dog. Or I occasionally hear people saying that they hate leaving their dog at home when they go out in the evening because the dog&#8217;s feelings might be hurt. In my opinion, hurt feelings aren&#8217;t in a dog&#8217;s emotional repertoire, but dogs <em>are</em> very attuned to humans&#8217; emotional states, and a dog is likely to develop separation anxiety if its owners project human neuroses onto the dog whenever they leave home for a few hours. I think it&#8217;s fun to take dogs along to bars or to parties if they are welcome there, but if we have to leave them at home, we shouldn&#8217;t project our own human insecurities onto our dogs.</p>
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		<title>By: V Smoothe</title>
		<link>http://www.fragmentaryevidence.com/2009/03/13/smart-chimpanzees-stupid-human-beings/#comment-515</link>
		<dc:creator>V Smoothe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Mar 2009 08:52:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fragmentaryevidence.com/?p=435#comment-515</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s totally fair, DC. Dogs should be allowed to be dogs. I perhaps misunderstood for a moment there. It sort of seemed (maybe only to me, because I have a tendency to be oversensitive about these things), that you were somehow equating the way people treat their dogs with abused zoo animals.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s totally fair, DC. Dogs should be allowed to be dogs. I perhaps misunderstood for a moment there. It sort of seemed (maybe only to me, because I have a tendency to be oversensitive about these things), that you were somehow equating the way people treat their dogs with abused zoo animals.</p>
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		<title>By: dc</title>
		<link>http://www.fragmentaryevidence.com/2009/03/13/smart-chimpanzees-stupid-human-beings/#comment-508</link>
		<dc:creator>dc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Mar 2009 21:35:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fragmentaryevidence.com/?p=435#comment-508</guid>
		<description>V Smoothe: Treating dogs like family is all to the good; I certainly treat my own dog like family. I said that we often treat our pets as &lt;strong&gt;human&lt;/strong&gt; family members, and I believe that &lt;em&gt;is&lt;/em&gt; detrimental to their mental health. Dogs have evolved (and been bred) over the millennia to have a particular psychological makeup, and just as it would be child abuse to make one&#039;s son or daughter crawl around on all fours in a field in the rain sniffing for scents, it is dog abuse &lt;strong&gt;not&lt;/strong&gt; to allow one&#039;s dog to fulfill its doggy nature by doing things like that. Dogs are wonderful family members, but I think it&#039;s important to remind oneself that they are still dogs, even if they curl up on the couch to &quot;watch&quot; Dancing with the Stars with the rest of the family.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>V Smoothe: Treating dogs like family is all to the good; I certainly treat my own dog like family. I said that we often treat our pets as <strong>human</strong> family members, and I believe that <em>is</em> detrimental to their mental health. Dogs have evolved (and been bred) over the millennia to have a particular psychological makeup, and just as it would be child abuse to make one&#8217;s son or daughter crawl around on all fours in a field in the rain sniffing for scents, it is dog abuse <strong>not</strong> to allow one&#8217;s dog to fulfill its doggy nature by doing things like that. Dogs are wonderful family members, but I think it&#8217;s important to remind oneself that they are still dogs, even if they curl up on the couch to &#8220;watch&#8221; Dancing with the Stars with the rest of the family.</p>
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		<title>By: V Smoothe</title>
		<link>http://www.fragmentaryevidence.com/2009/03/13/smart-chimpanzees-stupid-human-beings/#comment-507</link>
		<dc:creator>V Smoothe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Mar 2009 20:06:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fragmentaryevidence.com/?p=435#comment-507</guid>
		<description>How does it hurt your dog&#039;s mental health to treat them like family?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How does it hurt your dog&#8217;s mental health to treat them like family?</p>
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		<title>By: avoice</title>
		<link>http://www.fragmentaryevidence.com/2009/03/13/smart-chimpanzees-stupid-human-beings/#comment-455</link>
		<dc:creator>avoice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2009 17:25:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fragmentaryevidence.com/?p=435#comment-455</guid>
		<description>Boy, this is weirdly similar to &quot;Planet of the Apes&quot; where the apes were planning to castrate Charlton Heston because he was too smart.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Boy, this is weirdly similar to &#8220;Planet of the Apes&#8221; where the apes were planning to castrate Charlton Heston because he was too smart.</p>
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		<title>By: dc</title>
		<link>http://www.fragmentaryevidence.com/2009/03/13/smart-chimpanzees-stupid-human-beings/#comment-436</link>
		<dc:creator>dc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Mar 2009 21:58:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fragmentaryevidence.com/?p=435#comment-436</guid>
		<description>eric: Isn&#039;t it funny that we still use the expression &quot;It was a zoo!&quot; to describe things like maniacal shoppers looking for bargains at Best Buy on the day after Thanksgiving, while real zoos are totally unchaotic? Unless you count an enclosed wildlife rehab center in Alaska, the last zoo I went to was the San Diego zoo. I find zoos simultaneously fun and disturbing.

The global primate revolution may have begun. Check out &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/wildlife/4970905/Monkey-kills-cruel-owner-with-coconut-thrown-from-tree.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this story from Thailand&lt;/a&gt;:

&lt;em&gt;A monkey who was forced to climb palm trees by his owner took revenge by killing him with a coconut.

The animal threw the missile from the top of a tree after becoming frustrated with his tiring labour, according to reports.

Leilit Janchoom, 48, had employed the monkey to pick coconuts which he could then sell for around 4p each. 

The animal – named Brother Kwan – found the work tedious and strenuous but Mr Janchoom refused to let him rest, dishing out beatings if he refused to climb trees.

It is believed that the monkey eventually snapped, and targeted his owner from a high branch with one of the hard-skinned fruits.

Mr Janchoom, from the province of Nakorn Sri Thammarat in Thailand, died on the spot after being struck by the coconut, according to reports in a local newspaper.

The dead man&#039;s wife said that the monkey had &quot;seemed lovable&quot; when they bought him for £130.&lt;/em&gt;

wordnerd: We modern humans hold contradictory beliefs: We often treat our pets -- whether they be &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jvlkKth37Fp__GL6KYdl2b1s6dBgD96DNV5G0&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;chimpanzees&lt;/a&gt; or dogs -- as human family members, to the detriment of the animals&#039; mental health; then when animals behave as they have evolved to behave, we rush to fall back on the false dichotomy between &quot;rational&quot; and &quot;predictable&quot; human beings and &quot;wild&quot; animals.

These stories always remind me of Nabokov&#039;s anecdote in the afterword to &lt;em&gt;Lolita&lt;/em&gt; about the ape who was encouraged to draw a picture by its handlers, and when it finally did, it drew the bars of its own cage.

Incidentally, if anyone feels like doing some pro bono editing, the first few sentences of &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;the Wikipedia entry on Monkeys&lt;/a&gt; could use some help.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>eric: Isn&#8217;t it funny that we still use the expression &#8220;It was a zoo!&#8221; to describe things like maniacal shoppers looking for bargains at Best Buy on the day after Thanksgiving, while real zoos are totally unchaotic? Unless you count an enclosed wildlife rehab center in Alaska, the last zoo I went to was the San Diego zoo. I find zoos simultaneously fun and disturbing.</p>
<p>The global primate revolution may have begun. Check out <a href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/wildlife/4970905/Monkey-kills-cruel-owner-with-coconut-thrown-from-tree.html" rel="nofollow">this story from Thailand</a>:</p>
<p><em>A monkey who was forced to climb palm trees by his owner took revenge by killing him with a coconut.</p>
<p>The animal threw the missile from the top of a tree after becoming frustrated with his tiring labour, according to reports.</p>
<p>Leilit Janchoom, 48, had employed the monkey to pick coconuts which he could then sell for around 4p each. </p>
<p>The animal – named Brother Kwan – found the work tedious and strenuous but Mr Janchoom refused to let him rest, dishing out beatings if he refused to climb trees.</p>
<p>It is believed that the monkey eventually snapped, and targeted his owner from a high branch with one of the hard-skinned fruits.</p>
<p>Mr Janchoom, from the province of Nakorn Sri Thammarat in Thailand, died on the spot after being struck by the coconut, according to reports in a local newspaper.</p>
<p>The dead man&#8217;s wife said that the monkey had &#8220;seemed lovable&#8221; when they bought him for £130.</em></p>
<p>wordnerd: We modern humans hold contradictory beliefs: We often treat our pets &#8212; whether they be <a href="http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jvlkKth37Fp__GL6KYdl2b1s6dBgD96DNV5G0" rel="nofollow">chimpanzees</a> or dogs &#8212; as human family members, to the detriment of the animals&#8217; mental health; then when animals behave as they have evolved to behave, we rush to fall back on the false dichotomy between &#8220;rational&#8221; and &#8220;predictable&#8221; human beings and &#8220;wild&#8221; animals.</p>
<p>These stories always remind me of Nabokov&#8217;s anecdote in the afterword to <em>Lolita</em> about the ape who was encouraged to draw a picture by its handlers, and when it finally did, it drew the bars of its own cage.</p>
<p>Incidentally, if anyone feels like doing some pro bono editing, the first few sentences of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey" rel="nofollow">the Wikipedia entry on Monkeys</a> could use some help.</p>
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		<title>By: eric</title>
		<link>http://www.fragmentaryevidence.com/2009/03/13/smart-chimpanzees-stupid-human-beings/#comment-435</link>
		<dc:creator>eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Mar 2009 18:06:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fragmentaryevidence.com/?p=435#comment-435</guid>
		<description>Do people still go to zoos?  I took my daughter to one last year--it was totally deserted, and deeply disturbing.  The animals seemed to have two strategies, torpor or pacing.  None had advanced to stone throwing, although the wolves looked at us with what seemed to be real malice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do people still go to zoos?  I took my daughter to one last year&#8211;it was totally deserted, and deeply disturbing.  The animals seemed to have two strategies, torpor or pacing.  None had advanced to stone throwing, although the wolves looked at us with what seemed to be real malice.</p>
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		<title>By: wordnerd</title>
		<link>http://www.fragmentaryevidence.com/2009/03/13/smart-chimpanzees-stupid-human-beings/#comment-433</link>
		<dc:creator>wordnerd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Mar 2009 12:16:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fragmentaryevidence.com/?p=435#comment-433</guid>
		<description>...and Harvard and MIT, now in the thores of fiscal turmoil...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230;and Harvard and MIT, now in the thores of fiscal turmoil&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: wordnerd</title>
		<link>http://www.fragmentaryevidence.com/2009/03/13/smart-chimpanzees-stupid-human-beings/#comment-432</link>
		<dc:creator>wordnerd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Mar 2009 12:15:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fragmentaryevidence.com/?p=435#comment-432</guid>
		<description>...&quot;apes can plan ahead just like humans&quot; 

What evidence is there that humans can plan ahead? Cf. the &quot;victims&quot; of Madoff.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230;&#8221;apes can plan ahead just like humans&#8221; </p>
<p>What evidence is there that humans can plan ahead? Cf. the &#8220;victims&#8221; of Madoff.</p>
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